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Regular Joe
 
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Who here likes Dracula movies? Stick with me on this.
Ever since Bram Stoker wrote that book, a whole world of mythology opened up about this mythical new enemy. And people started taking things that he wrote as truth. Like 'You can only kill a vampire with a stake through the heart." But as time went on, people decided to elaborate on the vampire method and even started insert science into the story. Eventually, you can kill them with holy water squirtguns as in "the Lost Boys" or with a concentrated garlic extract as well as with silver bullets as in the "Blade" movies.
I remember seeing a documentary around Halloween about Stoker. He was the personal assistant of the actor Sir Henry Irving and the business manager of the Lyceum Theatre in London, which Irving owned. It was said that he didn't much care for Mr. Irving, that he was a tyrant. He was a harsh master who sucked the life out of Stoker. He admittedly built the character of Dracula on Mr. Irving (with some extra folklore concerning vampire superstitions thrown in). But we, in the latter half of the 20th century and on have taken to believe that the vampire is something else, something that it was probably never intended by the author.
I view the Church as I view "Dracula". Many different factions believe whole-heartedly that the church is for this reason or that and that one must do xyz to be saved, and if you don't your wrong. For instance, some will say that music is wrong unless it's without instruments(kill vampires with garlic serum). And others will say that you NEED to have communion weekly or you're just not doing it right (silver bullets kill vampires). But very few will go back to the bible with a fresh point of view an read it with a clear head devoid of what they've been told that it says, the equivalent of reading "Dracula" without having a picture of "vampire mythologies".
Barton Stone was one of a group of ministers in the 1800s who decided to break away from the Presbyterian Church and form their own denomination, so to speak. But, upon further examination of biblical teachings, they realized that what they were doing was no different that what they had been through before. So, to keep from continuing the cycle, they decided to not be a church anymore, or at least what everyone else would have called a church. Instead, they decided to stay individual and live with their congregation rather than decide on rules/programs that should be the same for all of them.
What a novel idea.
I lack people-skills.
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Regular Joe
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dannytechwannabe (2/20/2008)
I view the Church as I view "Dracula". Many different factions believe whole-heartedly that the church is for this reason or that and that one must do xyz to be saved, and if you don't your wrong.The bottom line here is what does the Bible say the church ought to be. It makes absolutely no difference in the end what different 'factions' believe if what they beleive and practice is not rooted and grounded in scripture. Also, there is nothing we can 'do' to be saved - it's a matter of belief.
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Regular Joe
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Born4Battle (2/21/2008)
The bottom line here is what does the Bible say the church ought to be. It makes absolutely no difference in the end what different 'factions' believe if what they beleive and practice is not rooted and grounded in scripture. Also, there is nothing we can 'do' to be saved - it's a matter of belief.
That's a good book-answer, but the problem with it is that the Bible is up to the interpretation of the reader. People will say that they are following the biblical teachings in their church. I'm sure the folks at Westboro Baptist Church think that they are following scripture by looking at the first Chapter of Romans and making signs that say "God hates Fags. "
I lack people-skills.
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Site Owner/Operator
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The bottom line here is what does the Bible say the church ought to be Personally I dont think it matters what the Bible says the CHURCH ought to be... I think what matters is what Jesus said WE ought to be. As we discussed last week at church, did Jesus really come here to start a religion or did He come here to break the issues associated with organized religion and refocus people on what INDIVIDUALS need to do. The more I learn the less I think the message was for the masses. As I hear more and more parables I feel like while the messages go out to large groups, each is setup to speak to an individual. The larger the group you gather to pull the message into something that is easily digested by a group vs the individual, the more I believe you break down the message itself. IMO the church sprang up to find a way to collect up and organize what Jesus taught so I think of it as a container. Do I care more for the container or the contents? If the purest water is placed in the best container in the world or the oldest broken container, isnt it still the water that matters? I think thats rhetorical.
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Regular Joe
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Whenever men interpret the Bible, we make mistakes (we are still sinners) - no doubt about that. However, when the Bible is read for it's totality and in context, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (who indwells every believer), we mere mortals can get pretty close to what is really what. And yes, anyone can have an agenda and misuse scripture to support that agenda. And what's wrong with a 'book' answer when the source book is t he Bible? The Bible tells us that there is an individual dimension the expression of Christianity and also a corporate dimension that we can call the church. The church universal is the entire body of called out believers in Christ. The church as an organization made up of individuals is also a Biblical concept. I know that no CHURCH will be perfect, but neither are individual believers. The message ought to be proclaimed faithfully and accurately to individuals as well as groups, no matter how large or small. The institutional 'church' is a biblical concept - the application is what suffers because of men, not the guidance provided in the Bible for the operation of the institution. God saves individual sinners, not groups of people, but we are called to worship Him corporately as well as individually.
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Seasoned Vet
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Usually I stear clear of the religous discussions. Not for lack of faith, I just find sometimes it becomes heated, and there is always someone who is insulted or feels slighted.
Born4Battle, I agree that mankind does err in interperting the Bible. Yet, it is and always has been not just Gods Word, but mans interpertation of what that word was. Whether it was those who wrote down initially the Word of god as they heard it. Or those later who began to actually write the first Bible. The Bible has been through many changes, there are many variations, and it is largely based on mans interpertations of the word of God.
I just do not see where that can be avoided. It has been quite some time since God has had anything to say on the subject Himself. (Not trying to be sarcastic here at all by the way). I am just saying, that though I believe that God speaks to all of us through our faith, he has kept hands off otherwise in the interpertation of His words.
So here were are centuries later having been through the Crusades, the rise of Islam, the persecution of the Jews, the animosity between denominations of the Christian Faith (we can not even all agree on what Gods words mean)....
Heck I know I am not making much sense, but there is one thing I am certain of pertaining to the original topic... God did not want the Church to be anything more than a place to worship. It is not a place to raise money for the Church. God doesn't need his flock to be worshipping him in such grand style. In my opinion those churches are more focussed on the monetary aspect of it... God wants us to reach out and help our neighbors, that is not what is happening in many of those Churches in my opinion. Someone is getting rich, and that is not the way God works.
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Regular Joe
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AbnCrazy (2/21/2008)
...mankind does err in interperting the Bible. Yet, it is and always has been not just Gods Word, but mans interpertation of what that word was....The Bible has been through many changes, there are many variations, and it is largely based on mans interpertations of the word of God. ...It has been quite some time since God has had anything to say on the subject Himself. ... he has kept hands off otherwise in the interpertation of His words. .... God did not want the Church to be anything more than a place to worship.Thanks for jumping in with some pretty relevant comments. I might be overly optomistic, but somehow I think the God who created the universe and wanted to send us His written word is also able to preserve it's integrity while using the hands of men to write it. When I examine passages or sections of scripture using various translations I find that real translations rather than paraphrases are amazingly consistent. There is also the Holy Spirit indwelling believers that is the real teacher of what the Bible says and He will never contradict Himself. I would offer that God is not 'hands off' in the matter at all, but He teaches us Himself through the Holy Spirit. Even then, I have often asked myself "Is this the Holy Spirit?" or just me, as I read. Concerning the Church, you hit on some prevalent errors that are a cancer to His church. the New Testament book of Acts tells us what it ought to be. - Acts 2:42-47
- 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
I think all of the above can be termed acts of worship, but note the primary emphasis on teaching. The most grievous error in the church is not the obvious using it for personal gain and glory, but the more subtle act of omitting those portions of the gospel message that would make one feel 'uncomfortable'. that's the integrity issue.
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