Tuffie, I think the crux of the issue is that believers feel that while you may not believe in God, believers know God to exist and therefore to believers its like you choosing to stand in a room with another person and keep saying that YOU dont see the other guy. To believers, he's there and your proclomation that he is NOT there doesnt change the fact.

Believers are always going to say you're just misinformed and that you not believing in God doesnt mean He's not there. Tough nut to crack because believers will hit you with faith while a non believer will hit you with the 'if I cant see it, feel it, smell it or see some fossils, its not there'.

Now a discussion I'd like to see is... as a non believer, when you die, would God (Im a believer so Im hitting it from that side) park your butt in a spot thats just dark (kind of what you'd expect) or would (and here's what I'd like to think) God meet you on the other side and introduce Himself and tell you that while you didnt believe in Him, he believed in you and then weigh you on your deeds in life anyway and if you measure up, offer you a place in his kingdom.

Ok, that was deep... wow.

 

That is a distortion of the truth. God has given us freedom of choice but the choice is between good and evil. We are born in sin and given the choice to stay in sin or to get out of sin by choosing to serve God.

We are, as has been said, born with an innate desire to know God. Some, many perhaps, choose to fill that desire with false gods. Drugs, sex, music, false idols, or whatever. These people can be good or bad; but what they do't realize is that no matter how hard we ry we cannot be good enough.

Why not? The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are told elsewhere that it is because we can't control our thoughts which are often sinful, which really is betraying our innermost nature.

That should point out that it is not our job as believers to condemn another. We need to make judgements but not to be judgemental. I need to judge whether or not something is wrong, but not whether or not someone is condemned or not.

Returning to our topic of Fear of the Lord, and adding in the point about a warm and loving God meeting you in a dark place and introducing Himself to you I submit then that why would there need to be any fear?

An evil person such as Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, or Zarkawi meeting with God and being forgiven strikes me as patently unjust and God tells us that He is definitely just when He says, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay."

But what about the good person who just never had the chance to be told the Gospel? Well, the Bible does not say much that I find to be clear on that subject. But there is this:

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

The hippo is unpredictable and aggressive with old scars and fresh, deep wounds providing signs of daily fights that are accompanied by much bellowing, neighing and snorting.

Have a good day gentleman

1/508th Abn Inf, 82nd Abn Div 81-83

1/4th Inf (Mech), 3rd Inf Div (USAEUR) 83-84

SGT\EIB\Recondo

Dont feel sorry for the unbelievers on this one, Tuffie drove in here to discuss his take on the situation AS an unbeliever and I believe he knew full well what that meant when he typed the post. I commend him for entering into the discussion largely because it usually turns into big IS/ISNT back and forth litany of endless banter.

For a bunch of paratroopers, I really enjoy the free and deep thinking that goes on in this forum, and the fact that it can be done without the whole thing boiling down to a screaming match impresses me to no end.

 

Tuffie, Believers can condemn no man.  The Bible forbids this.  The problem is that believers don't know their Bible, or simply they become zealots or self-righteous. Jesus tried so hard to point these very things out while he was here on earth.  He was outraged by the piety of religious leaders of the day.  All the rules and regulations, all the do's and do not's as though by following these a man could save himself and enter into some state of God's grace and forgiveness. 

Up until the time of Jesus' death, most religions, including the Jewish one practice blood sacrifice.  That is something was killed for the atonement of sin.  What then was sin? And why did something need to die for it?  Well there is a theological debate itself, but let us be simple.  You said you tried to be a 'good man.'  You have then a sense of what 'goodness' is.  Where did that come from?  We do not need to teach a child to lie.  When it is young and does that which it knows is wrong (and how does it know?) when questioned, it knows to lie in an attempt to escape.  It knows wrong from right.  This is the nature of God.  It is the "knowledge of good and evil" describe in Genesis.

Now onto the point of your query.  Condemnation therefore is not by man, but by God.  You do not believe.  So what!  You do not see air, (unless you live in L.A.) you do not have to believe it is there, yet you breath it and because you do, you live. So therefore is God. All things good come from God and He says he can not look on sin.  It is not man, nor the believer that has any right to judge you, only God. (Although the Bible does say that all authority is from God, self appointed zealots do not count.)  He provided a perfect sacrifice because through time the senseless slaughter of perfect unblemished lambs for individual sin became pointless. Only a blood sacrifice could remove the sin, but how much blood could be spilled? (Heb 9:22)  He made the sacrifice something EVERY man could understand and appreciate.  His own son, perfect, without sin, God incarnate, sent him to earth to be a sacrifice to bear the sins of man.  Did he have to?  Nope.  He did it to provide a way, a door, an escape root from His own unyielding judgement.  Jesus, the Christ, bore the sin of each man individually present, future if only they believe.  A gift, not to be earned.  No other requirements.

So, For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?  God made a way.  He put in us the knowledge of right and wrong as well as the knowledge and the ability to see Him in the world around us.  If we chose to not acknowledge Him, it does not change His presence, we will continue to live until we die.  What will it change?  The final outcome my friend. 

As to my Christian brothers who have something to say about my first paragraph.....  I say this to you.  Matthew 18:15-19  This is Jesus speaking, so don't get all pouty.  It starts out: "If your brother"  Now folks, I am going to stop right there with the quote and lt you read on how to proceed.  Where does any Christian get off upsurting the authority of Christ therefore to confront someone who is NOT a brother or sister in Christ?  You can witness.  You can be a good example.  Bout you can not upsurt the judgement throne of Christ and become Lord God Almighty unless your name is Pope Pius I who said, "I am Lord God and sit in judgement of all man."  (I paraphrase I am sure)  I don't believe he understood what he said in reflection.  We may confront our Brother (or sister) in Christ.  No crusades, no "wiping out the infidel", no Pharisee’s and Saducee’s.  We are but men, under grace, imperfect and guided by the Word.  So take off the cloak of self-righteousness and put on the FULL ARMOR OF GOD!

So Tuffie, it is really simple.  God is or in His own word 'I am' and it does matter to Him if you believe because He ransomed you the unbeliever with His very own Son.  He does not wish the price to be wasted.  But it's free will.  You have the choice and yes, His judgement is non negotiable, and righteous and yes, unbending.  It does not matter how good we are.  Ask Job.  He said it in Job 34:9  'It profits a man nothing when he tries to please God."  Why, because the price of Eternal life is not works.  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.   

Time is relative, relatives take time.

The 'him' is Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven.

Concerning free will, save for Christ, Adam and Eve were the only others who have ever had complete free will. Since the fall, every human being has been so affected by sin that we cannot even come to Jesus without some help. That's John 6:44, among others, which says:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Yes, we are responsible to make a decision, but we even need a kick start by the Holy Spirit beginning the work in us.

In His Toolbox,

B4B
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/dcartwright/CMF_FortCarson/

By definition, unbelievers don't believe God exists - well said. . . but consider the following from Romans, Chapter 1:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 

Men (and women) say they don't believe in God, but scripture states otherwise - we all know that He exists from evidence in creation itself - what is called the 'general revelation' of God. If we are all born with the knowledge that God exists, the statement "I don't believe in God." becomes rather meritless. I don't believe there are any true athiests, however thre are many whose 'foolish hearts are darkened' to the point that they:

"22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal m