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Hard Charger
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Born4Battle (12/18/2006)
It is correct to say that Adam and Even didn't have any bad stuff. Their disobedience did however result in them getting "the bad stuff" (sin nature) and every human being after their sin being born "with bad stuff". Would you agree? With the first couple, their willful disobedience resulted in their "loss of goodness", as you say. We are not in the same boat though. We are all born D.O.A. in spiritual terms, with an inborn disposition to sin.If we are basically good and need to get better, we need a teacher If we are sick and need to be healed we need a doctor If we are dead and need to be alive that requires a God. A God willing to sacrifice of himself, through His Son, in order to defeat sin and death so that we might be able to receive everlasting Life.
"...my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me." He added, after a pause, looking me full in the face: "That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave" General "Stonewall" Jackson
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Regular Joe
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skypilot (12/18/2006)[hr If we are basically good and need to get better, we need a teacher If we are sick and need to be healed we need a doctor If we are dead and need to be alive that requires a God. A God willing to sacrifice of himself, through His Son, in order to defeat sin and death so that we might be able to receive everlasting Life. Amen to that! I love meeting new people and getting to answer the question "Where you from?" Instead of hearing "Wisconsin" (where I was physically born), I can answer: "Well, I was born on death row..." and see what happens. I find it incredibly sad when I hear invitations to come to Christ given without a full explanation of the why. Many times the invitation is to come to Christ for a better life, but that's a bit like putting on a parachute just for a more comfortable airplane ride!
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| Im playing catch up but have we addressed yin/yang? How can you choose to be good if you dont have bad, how can you choose to NOT sin unless there IS sin. Sin wasnt created when lucifer fell.. it was there and I would then see it as part of the master plan.. Gods plan included sin from the start. If we look at the Garden of Eden then wasnt God setting us up? Create paradise and then say "Oh, dont touch THAT". This is a very confusing concept to me because I believe everything is based on design and if sin and its many temptations are part of the plan, how can you be upset at part of the master plan? Now.. lets consider the other side of the coin, what would a world without sin or the temptation of sin even look like? Could the human race survive what SHOULD BE nirvana? Oh, and then there is the breaking the rules because God says so... Thou shalt not kill but then many a story in the Bible involves killing either at Gods hand or under his direction. I ponder this one when watching the 10 commandments movie with Heston, how do you reconcile no killing and then put out the plagues of egypt including the death of the first born sons? Is there a mixed signal? The rules are the rules only when God doesnt specifically say otherwise? Can human beings be trusted to make such a distinction? Oh, btw are we discussing sins in the Bible sense or the exhaustive list the Catholic Chuch hands down?
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| If God created us with the capacity to rebel... I ask.. WHY? You have the power to create a being without that capacity and avoid a world with pain and suffering and near constant internal struggles that become external struggles. WHY? Sure, I'll get the standard 'We cannot question God' but that doesnt stop me from wondering and there wont be an answer (at least not likely while Im still upright). Some say to question God is a sin but questioning the greatest teacher should be a good and healthy thing right?
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Hard Charger
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| Rigger I like your last question and I think I addressed it in my thread on cults. It is not merely the Catholic church that likes to hand those kinds of lists out, rather it is when people are put in charge of divine things and take that opportunity to put their own 2 cents worth in. More likely they apply what they are struggleing with in their own lives to everyone around them. the Disney film Hunchback of Notre Dame portrays it beautifully as the villian, a priest, struggles with his lust for Esmerilda (OK I know I spelled that wrong but you know who I'm talking about) He then comes to the conclusion that since he is a priest he is by definition holy therefore the fault must be with the woman. The logic doesn't work but it is the way that church doctrine worked out for years. The next logical step is that all women are evil temptresses to be avoided--pulling men, who are wholesome and godly into sin. Of course those who are in power (men in general and clergy in particular) have no culpibility in the problem, it's all the evil temptresses' fault. Clearly this is not what the Bible teaches but rather it is a twist of logic that allowed for people to deny their actions and make it all someone else's fault. It is very easy to point at sin in others and blame our sin on others and not take responsiblity for our own weakness. Paul says we have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory--however it is God's gift to us that allows us to come back to him. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!
"...my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me." He added, after a pause, looking me full in the face: "That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave" General "Stonewall" Jackson
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Hard Charger
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Rigger82 (12/18/2006)
If God created us with the capacity to rebel... I ask.. WHY? You have the power to create a being without that capacity and avoid a world with pain and suffering and near constant internal struggles that become external struggles. WHY? Sure, I'll get the standard 'We cannot question God' but that doesnt stop me from wondering and there wont be an answer (at least not likely while Im still upright). Some say to question God is a sin but questioning the greatest teacher should be a good and healthy thing right? Ok, on my last post I got distracted and didn't get it up before you posted this one. Yes you can question God and people who say you can't are afraid of trying to find the answers. Questioning the Greatest Teacher, the Creator, the Holy One is just fine. Sometimes we don't understand the answers, sometimes we don't like the answers but it is OK to question. I think at least part of the answer to this particular question is found in Jesus encouter with a blind man when the disciples asked who had sinned, the man or his parents that he was born with such an affliction. Jesus' resonse was neither, rather he was born blind so that Christ's power could make him see and God would be glorified. He then proceeded to heal the man of his blindness. On one level sin was allowed into the world by God, not created by God, in order that He might be glorified by providing a way out of sin for His creation.
"...my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me." He added, after a pause, looking me full in the face: "That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave" General "Stonewall" Jackson
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Regular Joe
 
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Mark, you're not alone in questioning things. It's called 'thinking.'
People who say you shouldn't second guess God are usually talking about lacking faith. But then you have to ask,"Well, what is faith then?" And then they'll tell you that it's some level of belief or the power of positive thinking or 'The Force' or some other description. In any of these cases, you who decide to question something do not have some quantifiable level of "faith-juice" that you need. But the biblical writers don't necessarily write it that way. In fact, I think they present it quite the opposite. But that'll take too long for this.
Paul in the beginning of Romans writes about how people were doing all these things that they damn well knew were wrong. If a = b and b = c, then a = c. They should have put all the facts together first, i.e. thought for themselves instead of followed the herd.
God in Christianity doesn't want unthinking robots (except in Calvinism I think). He wants people who consciously choose him instead of themselves. Different denominations will tell you different versions that this choice for God is shown.
Just consider a marriage where your married to a robot. She does everything you want without consideration. In fact, everyone everywhere does everything you want. Without question. Is that fun, or would it get boring after a while. The book answer is that you'd get bored and want a thinking wife.
So in the end, your decision to question things ain't a bad thing according to the Bible. Hell, a bunch of the psalms are precisely that. David did it all the time.
I lack people-skills.
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