Khyros, I must definitely disagree with you about your assessment of non combat personnel not "firing shots in anger" theory.  Allow me to present to you as exhibit A my story about a friend of mine.  My friend was a 63B, a mechanic - therefore, NOT a combat arms soldier.  While deployed to the sandbox, he and other non combat arms MOS soldiers were tapped to conduct combat patrol operations.  While performing these duties, he and his fellow troopers would make contact with the enemy, etc.  During one of these patrols, an IED was detonated and he was killed.  The practice of having non combat arms folks performing these types of duties is not a rare occurance from my understanding as told by many veterans of both sandboxs, and in fact fairly commonplace.  My point is that just because he was a mechanic does not mean squat in today's combat environment.  My other point is that because of that, why should they not be able to have the opportunity to garner the experience and leadership as taught in such schools as RS?  It is the skills taught there that would not improve the effectiveness of these troopers on their missions, perhaps save lives of our own and take more of our enemies.  That's my $.02

--------------------------------------
ArmyParatrooper.org

Absolute priority should be given to those in Combat Arms and those in or going to the Ranger Regiment.  Only if there were a shortage of those in critical MOS's or the 75th should opening it up be considered.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

"History teaches that when you become indifferent and lose the will to fight someone who has the will to fight will take over." COLONEL BULL SIMONS

This policy is clear regarding selection of CS/CSS soldiers for RS and and it also clearly states that RS attendance will remain limited to soldiers for who the combat exclusion policy does not apply.  In other words RS is still not there to accomodate "badgefinders".  Especially now that we are still engaged in the GWOT.

Due to the backlog of 2LT's sitting here at Benning they have ADDED a ranger class. There is now a Ranger course being run on 27MAR05. Normally, there is no Ranger School during this period -- it's set aside as a break and for Best Ranger.

Additionally there will be 70-90 2LT's in the course ... I don't think they're pulling the guys out of the Mortar Course ... they pulled them out of combatives, they may pull them out of Mech Leader's, Anti-Armor, I don't know.

 I was wrong about this soldier, he should not have gone, he did go and great job, now what do you do with your skills. It was not a wasted slot because there is a better soldier in the Army, but it did not meet any of the intent of the program. It should not be limited to the 11 series, and one good reason is that FA units deploying to Iraq are not using their guns, they are performing maneuver missions. They need maneuver skills as much as the Infantry and the Armor. All three branches are where the rubber meets the road. The policy is good if it is followed, and in this case it was not.

I won't call it a wasted slot because hopefully it is a one time deal, but if it continues, then yes it would be a case of resources that could be better used.

CS and CSS don't need RS what they need is good theather specific (SOSO or SASO) training before depolying; including a lot of convoy training with plenty of shooting from moving vehicles...something they won't get at RS.  Like the type being given at my mobe station (Ft. Bliss, TX) back in late 2003 to all units heading to the sand.  I spent a year in the sand box myself so I know WTF I'm talking about. 

Some RS slots should go to E-5s and above in certain types of CS/CSS units...not all.  Again, above my pay grade.

And BTW, I don't think anyone here is saying RS slots should only go to the infantry or SOF, what most here are saying is that the bulk of them should be.  If you wan't to give more REMFs a shot at RS then you need to increase the RTBs capacity to put more joes through (CA/CS/CSS) including their budget ($).  Also be ready for most of those CS/CSS REMFs to come back tabless.

And we need to get all those 11As waiting at Benning through RS so they can start leading infantry platoons in both training and combat.

 CSS augmentees are being used to conduct local security patrols, vehicle check points, and lots of gaurd duty. They do come under fire and regretfully, many such personnel have become casualties. Such individuals are not however conducting point/zone/area reconnaisance of suspected insurgent positions and targets of value. They are not participating in raids on such targets though they might find themselves on the outer cordon while the trigger pullers take care of business. They could find themselves on QRF and reacting to an attack on their FOB by manning defensive positions but they are not going outside the wire to hunt down and kill the tangos who just made a probe on their base. 

To support personnel the term combat is pretty much a blanket statement covering everything that occurs in theater that remotely involves enemy actions... to the folks who live and breath the shoot, move , and communicate mantra it is a multilayered set of taskings of increasing complexity. Ranger school addresses the leadership requirements at the penthouse level of those tasks... not the basement level operations that our CSS personnel are being tapped to perform. It also ferments pro-active and aggressive leadership, good when your backed by a squad of equally aggresive, highly trained, slightly sociopathic, and properly equipped infantry who are a well oiled machine with the primary task of seeking out and destroying the enemy... very bad when your leading a squad or platoon of CSS personnel that have received inadequete marksmanship training, have only the barest of exposure to battledrills, and are not psychologically prepared for the effort.  

Look... this war is no damned differant from every other low intensity conflict we have participated in since the Indian wars despite the popular term of it being a "new" kind of war. Soldiers of all makes and models need to be prepared to defend themselves which they should receive extra training in preparation for such a possibility however... Ranger school does not teach what they need to know in that regard one bit. CSS units would be far better served by having squad/section based tactical training... learning to operate with what they have on hand and what they will be expected to do... entire CSS companies could receive weeks of effective training for their level of involvement for what it costs to send one man through R-school.

 Just as a sidenote... a guy with a tab would be just as easy prey in a vehicular patrol as anyone else is. In the urban enviroments over there, foot patrols by dismounted infantry have proven the most effective means at countering insurgents.  

"The degenerative and loony should never be denigrated but, rather, thanked. In their absence, the rest of you would be obliged to fill congressional seats... positions naturally unsavory to the sane and honorable."

Thorax

You experienced guys who are arguing against allowing non-combat arms Soldiers to attend Ranger school need to argue your point with Coyote (CSA - In case you didn't know).  WHATEVER your level of experience - I'd say his real world experience trumps it.

But - Having said that, I'd also like to say this:  I'd say each and every one of you knows how VALUABLE and MOTIVATING it is to ANY unit to have Ranger-qualified personnel assigned.  The same is true for former Combat Infantrymen and even for those Soldiers who have seen or been subjected to real combat of any type.  One Ranger or Combat experienced Soldier in an otherwise inexperienced unit can do WONDERS toward getting his (or her) unit ready to go.

Airborne - We are an Army AT WAR.  I agree with the posts that say the applicants should go through a screening process, but I also say that once all the guys who will be at the tip of the spear and WHO ARE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE are in the class, open it up to whoever else is motivated enough to volunteer - Hooah?!?!?!?!?

BTW - If Silver Star recipient SGT Hester from the KY NG wanted to go to Ranger School, who here would tell her she didn't need to go?  Just checking...

JR, the whole women in Ranger School issue is entirely different and one that I don't think we really want to open up.  HOOAH?

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

"History teaches that when you become indifferent and lose the will to fight someone who has the will to fight will take over." COLONEL BULL SIMONS

Is it?!?!?!?  Oh, sorry - My mistake!

:o)