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Trooper
      
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Last Login: 10/2/2008 11:38 PM
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Annexing Canada would be a worse idea for you guys. care like adopting 15,000 democrats? haha i dont think so.
Proud Canadian Redneck
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Seasoned Vet
      
Group: Past PNET Supporter
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quote: December 6, 2003
Canadian Forces at risk of disappearing
By PAUL STANWAY -- Edmonton Sun
A thoughtful and well-researched new study of Canada's military predicts the imminent collapse of two-thirds of the Armed Forces and offers a stinging indictment of decades of government neglect.
OK, we've heard similar predictions and indictments in recent years, but none so well documented and devastatingly credible as this missile from researchers at Queen's University. Titled Canada Without Armed Forces?, it suggests the air force and either the army or navy will probably cease to exist around the end of this decade - unless Ottawa has a serious change of heart.
"The next government will be caught up in a cascading policy entanglement initiated by the rapid collapse of Canadian Forces' core assets and core capabilities," says the study. "This problem will inevitably disarm foreign policy as Canada repeatedly backs away from international commitments because it lacks adequate military forces." If Ottawa doesn't wake up and smell the coffee, "then the air force will likely disappear through the 2008-2013 time frame, and either the army or navy will disappear in the same time frame."
Since Canadians have for decades allowed successive federal governments to get away with substituting empty political rhetoric for foreign policy, while at the same time starving an increasingly bureaucratic military of personnel and equipment, you have to think that this scenario won't bother most people. What do we need a military for? We don't threaten anyone and we don't have any enemies.
Yet even if you don't support our involvement in any type of military action - and poll after poll suggests most Canadians don't - there are still the small matters of sovereignty and political independence. The same polls say most of us want to remain a sovereign nation and want Canada to have an independent voice in the world - particularly when it comes to relations with our powerful neighbour to the south.
But the contradiction, obviously, is that if you can't mount even a token demonstration of sovereignty, and you can't operate independent peacekeeping forces or contribute to international alliances - your sovereignty exists only on paper and you have no voice in the world. You are a bystander, and a vulnerable one at that - particularly sitting on an enormous chunk of global real estate and increasingly scarce natural resources.
"The real cost to Canadians," says the Queen's study, if we carry on as we are, "will be not simply a loss of international respect, but most likely the loss of control over most of Canada's territory and, ultimately, the forfeiting of national sovereignty... Canadians, it would appear, had best prepare themselves for these ominous apprehensions."
The other major point made by the study, and one which ought to bother all taxpayers, is that we get a dismal bang for our defence buck. "Even though the Canadian Forces has been reduced by 50% over the last 40 years," says the study, bureaucracy "(measured as the increase in supervisory groups) has increased in the same time frame by 300%."
The Canadian military is overburdened with generals and senior staff officers and a structure that is 30 years out of date. Yet despite all the senior brass and "supervisory groups," a co-author of the study estimates that inefficiency and political interference wastes "perhaps 40% to 50%" of the $13-billion annual defence budget.
On the simple grounds of eliminating waste, Canadians might be expected to demand improvements. But what might those improvements look like? Well, perhaps we could aspire to a defence policy that actually supports Canada's territorial integrity and political independence, and gives us some influence in world affairs. Then we could figure out how to spend $13 billion annually to create an efficient and effective military.
Or perhaps we'd rather be neutral, pacifist Sweden? With a population of 8.8 million, Sweden spends about $7 billion a year on a well-equipped defence force geared towards peacekeeping and maintaining sovereignty. All young men are subject to conscription and all Swedes aged between 16 and 70, if required, must serve in the equivalent of Canada's military reserve. There is a full-time military establishment of 20,000, and about 16,000 young conscripts go through military service each year. By golly, we would be better off if we were Sweden!
and a letter to the editor of the Ottawa Sun quote: The facts you have revealed in your editorial "Disarmed" (Dec. 4) should leave every Canadian with somewhat of a guilt complex. The Defence Association, The Council for Canadian Security and the Senate defence committee plus other defence related studies have been forecasting disaster for the past 10 years. Who has been listening or even cared?
Chretien has delayed the purchase of helicopters for 10 years strictly for political reasons, while our servicemen and women risk their lives every time they leave the ground. Has there been an outcry from the average Canadian voter? No!
As you have pointed out, the entire structure of the three services is so badly depleted that it will take years to restore the infrastructure necessary for training recruits even at the basic level, let alone the higher qualifications required for a modern military force.
One could write a book on the dreadful state of equipment in all three services. If one has the money, equipment can be purchased, however the lead time in procurement can be several years, depending on the item.
The lead time in producing a qualified, fully trained soldier, sailor or airman is quite a different matter. There is little or no incentive for young people to come into the Forces today knowing the dreadful state of things and the prospects for the future are no better.
The Canadian Forces are over-committed based on present manpower levels. This results in far too many back-to-back tours outside Canada. Families can only take so much and the retention rate drops badly.
This entire picture should be extremely demoralizing for all Canadians. It is beyond comprehension for someone like myself who is retired from the Land Force, (Armoured) after 32 years of service for this great country.
The present serviceman or woman at the regimental and unit level is still the dedicated individual determined to serve Canada in whatever capacity is required. I cannot say the same for the senior leadership of the Forces. Our generals (we have far too many) have become civilianized and far more concerned with their careers and future promotion than caring for the state of the men and women in the Forces.
This is a very sad scenario.
Robert Sear
Make The Voices Stop!
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Jump Booted Thug
      
Group: Past PNET Supporter
Last Login: 7/4/2008 6:24 AM
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Damn, talk about an apathetic populous! First, they give up the rights to own firearms (unless they jump through hoops and are VERY lucky), then they let their military dwindle to nearly nothing.
What's next? The police?
Sickening.
~
______________________________________________- Look Before You Turn
- Turn Right to Avoid Collisions
- Lower Jumper has the Right of Way
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Trooper
      
Group: Registered User
Last Login: 10/2/2008 11:38 PM
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Nope they would never get rid of police, because they are gonna be the only people holding back the crowds of people that are ready to rip the throats of the leaders if they let this happen. "F"ing shame.
Proud Canadian Redneck
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Seasoned Vet
      
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Last Login: 6/10/2006 7:52 AM
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quote: PC- what do you see as the fallout, Navy Coast Guard merge?
Honestly, I don't see any change in the works. In order for there to be any change, the Liberal Gov't would have to admit to making a mistake and they will NEVER do that. Then, they would have to divert money away from their personal projects to put into the Military. Again, never happen. It would take a great upsurge of interest on the part of the Canadian population. Yet again, never happen. The Government despises us, and the population are apathetic. The Canadian population has been protected for so long, they don't see that there is a threat. They have been subjected to left-wing propaganda for thirty years. It will take actual attacks on Canadian soil to wake them up.
quote: Food for thought: NORAD still exists, so part of the U.S. Air Defense mission is flown by Canada, their unwillingness to improve the AF puts additional pressure on our forces.
The American military has been Canada's protection for 3 decades. Our government has known that nobody can invade or threaten Canada as long as our powerful neighbour to the south wouldn't allow it.
That and the government's willingness to bend over to every enemy of freedom that has existed since 1970.
Commies? No problem. We knowingly allowed the Cubans to operate a spy ring out of their embassy to work against the Free World. Our newest trade partner is Mozambique. Trudeau was a dedicated Marxist. So is Chretien.
Terrorists? Hey, come on in! We only just declared Hezbollah and Hamas persona non grata THIS YEAR! We just lobbied to have Khadr released from Gitmo. This is a Taliban supporter. His brother killed an American soldier and his father is so famous as a terr that he's known all over Afghanistan & Pakistan as "Al Kanadi". The Canadian. I've got another thread about him in the War on Terror forum.
Welcome to my nightmare.
hellfire, as an example of how politically correct and 'sensitive' the Canadian public is: Miss "Canada" was born in IRAN! Sure, she's hotter than a German kiln, but she absolutely had to be of Middle Eastern descent, right? And shouldn't Miss Canada be oh, I don't know, BORN HERE?
Make The Voices Stop!
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Trooper
      
Group: Registered User
Last Login: 10/2/2008 11:38 PM
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PC you everthought of going into politics? Seriously though, you have the type of view that could make a positive change on this country.
Proud Canadian Redneck
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Regular Joe
      
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Last Login: 6/24/2006 11:01 AM
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Well, lets get some thought straight. First off the Liberal party is not commies, Marxists, etc. It is a Libertarian party, it believes in money making. And was one of the best parties for the Military. It all ended in the 70s. The PCs cut the Arrow project, the Bison Tank and the two Aircraft carriers/ships to be built in the 50s. The only Social party is the NDP.
As for Cuba, I like that place. It cost my wife and I, half what it would have to go to Florida. And we were treated great.
IrishEKU, the 8th Canadian Hussars (PLs) org the 8th NB Hussars. They are from New Brunswick and are now Militia. They were Reg and once part of the Special Service Force in Petawawa, until 87, then to Germany. It was my first unit. Not from out west.
The Canadian Military has always been a Peoples Army. It would not take long to get backup. It only took 2 weeks to go from 10,000 in 39 to 500,000. Now with TV, the Net.
Recruiting offices have many show but are turned away. In TO alone it get 1000 calls a week. And 200 in house. Right now the Armour corp has 110 new fellas in Gagetown. And has 4 more courses going through til summer. This does not include the Inf, Arty, and Engs.
The only trade that may fade will be the Gunners. ADATs may go to us. The MMGS may come to us also. We are getting the MGS. Hiller waits full time Armour type crews in the Lavs, and no Light Inf will go Mech. After 3 RCR comes home. Well 70% chance. This was in the CLS’s brief, I received. The Tanks are not gone but are may fade out. At the Armour School it must run double the courses. Right now all Tank NCOs have gone though retraining in Recce. Damn that was a nightmare. It will run 1- 7s SSM course, 2- 6Bs (Warrant Course), 2- DP3As Armour CC course, 2 -Army CC courses. 4-6 - DP1s ( basic crewmen)
So the Armour side is not TOO bad.
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