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Seasoned Vet
 
Group: Past PNET Supporter
Last Login: 9/7/2005 7:22 PM
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quote:
Arcticabn suggested in another thread that since we all already know the Stryker's a POS we should be trying to come up with ways to make it work, but I still can't see it ever fitting its intended purpose
Well it never will fit it's intended role, that's why I suggested unintended roles for it. Or basically what have been time tested and proven traditional roles for armored cars throughout time. The whole stupidity of this entire SBCT concept is that Shinseki wanted Motorized Infantry with wheeled armored cars and .50 cals to go into direct offensive engagement with the enemy.
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Seasoned Vet
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Last Login: 10/2/2005 10:13 PM
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I didn't know about the stabilisation issues. That would suck.
Here's the base thing on Stryker/LAV.
The Marines looked at a platform that didn't have a serious place in combat and found a niche that it could fill and make use of its strong points and hide its weak points. Move twenty years down the line and the Army builds a vehicle that maximizes the weaknesses of the vehicle (adding weight to slow it down) and minimizes the strong points (putting a pea shooter on it) whild shoehorning it into a niche it was not meant to fill.
Go with God, but make Him walk the point.
If you load a mudfoot down with a lot of gadgets he has to watch somebody a lot more simply equipped - say with a stone axe - will sneak up and bash his head in while he is trying to read a Vernier. - Robert Heinlein
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Regular Joe
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Last Login: 11/1/2008 9:24 PM
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ALL of our LAVs and Coyotes have 25 MM., Full stab., LRF, IRsite, TI, Optic site. A Laser detector, Tach nav, (ISTAR display command ones).
The Coyote Recce Veh BGE/DIV level has a Radar out to 42Ks, FLIR 30kS, Camera new one is to be 24kS.
The Arty has their vesion of the LAV FOO. With a Arty radar. We are to buy the FCS, MMGS, DFS in the next two yrs. The Canadian Army is going to a med BGE size. The plan is to buy more transports also for the airforce.
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Trooper
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Uhhh, just to be clear, I didn't mean to imply that the LAV-25 didn't have full electronic stabilization. What I did mean to imply was that on ugly terrain at anything more than a crawling speed it's a real b*tch to keep a LAV-25 on target compared to a tracked vehicle because you're bouncing all over the place in the turret. The issues result from the difficulty keeping your eye to the sight and your hand in one place relative to your body's movements. Also, the LAV-25s I trained had a one-handed Gunner's Control Handle rather than the two-handed style in the BFV and the M1 (two-handed is much easier to control and proficiency with it takes less time) making the quality of the ride even more important. The two-handed Control Handle design allows you to push or pull on it without affecting your point of aim, where the one-handed design is like a joystick in that pushing or pulling depresses or raises the barrel of the weapon. A good gunner in a BFV really can engage targets on the move even while literally jumping the vehicle through ditches by pulling hard on the Gunner's Control Handles which forces his head firmly forward into the sight's browpad. Soldiers in the back of the BFV can be bouncing around like popcorn popping and that gunner can still put steel on target. There's no easy way for the gunner to keep himself gunning like that in a LAV-25, and all the effects of the terrain are magnified by the tires. You can still kill stuff with a LAV-25 but it's easier to kill stuff with a BFV because the BFV a) has enough turret space for better controls, b) has enough turret space for more readied ammo so you can stay in the fight longer, and c) provides a more stable platform to fire from. All three of those reasons are impacted by the inflatable tires and the need to have a lower center of gravity than in a tracked vehicle.
I guess I should have said all that the first time. [ ]
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred." --Superchicken
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Hard Charger
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Here's the latest on the Styker:
quote:
Seattle Times
September 16, 2003
Some Stryker Tiles Fail Under Fire; Maker Rushes To Fortify Vehicles
By Ray Rivera and Hal Bernton, Seattle Times staff reporters
New live-fire tests by the Army have found that almost one-third of the ceramic armor tile used to protect troops inside the new Stryker carriers failed to meet the minimum requirements to stop heavy machine-gun fire.
The new disclosure from sources close to the program comes just weeks before 3,600 members of the Fort Lewis-based 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division are scheduled to debut the Stryker vehicles in Iraq.
The vehicle's maker, General Dynamics Land Systems, is now rushing about 20 two-man teams to Fort Lewis to fortify the unit's 309 Stryker vehicles. The plan is to add a 3-mm steel backing to the armor, a fix expected to be completed by month's end.
Just two weeks ago, the Army confirmed only one flaw in the 39 major tile types that make up the vehicle's armor plating. But more live-fire tests completed yesterday in Aberdeen, Md., revealed that 12 of the tile types could not stop a 14.5-mm round, slightly bigger than a 50-caliber bullet.
"The bottom line is these vehicles will not be deployed" until they have the promised protection, said Army spokesman Maj. Gary Tallman. The $1.5 million Strykers, the Army's first new combat vehicles in 20 years, are covered by about 130 armor panels per vehicle. Each of the shaped panels is composed of numerous smaller ceramic tiles and other material pieced together like a jigsaw puzzle.
The Strykers, which have eight wheels and carry up to 11 soldiers, are a cornerstone in the Army's efforts to transform itself into a faster and more agile fighting force. An entire brigade — including its full contingent of about 300 Stryker vehicles — is designed to be airlifted anywhere in the world in less than a week.
As home of the Army's first two Stryker brigades, Fort Lewis has become synonymous with the Army's transformation initiative. The vehicles can be equipped to fire mortars and anti-tank missiles, plow trenches, evacuate wounded soldiers and detect chemical and biological agents. A variation with a 105-mm cannon is in the works.
The Army and General Dynamics, meanwhile, are examining how the problem went undiscovered so late into production.
Army officials say that they first discovered problems with the ceramic panels in February, when an X-ray revealed that the armor's German designer, IBD, had changed the way the armor is made. The testing revealed changes in the ceramic composition, the size of the ceramic pieces within the panels, and other deviations.
In all, the Army has said it found 39 variations of the armor as opposed to the six it had approved.
But Ulf Deisenroth, president of the Bonn-based IBD, said he did not know until this month that the Army only authorized six variations. Deisenroth said he was surprised to learn of the Army's concerns from a Sept. 5 report in The Seattle Times.
Deisenroth said his company disclosed last year that there would be 26 tile variations. That information was reported to the lead Stryker contractor, a joint venture between General Motors Defense and General Dynamics Land Systems, he said. When design changes pushed that number up to 39, the new number was also passed on to the joint venture, Deisenroth said. The joint program is now controlled by General Dynamics.
"We feel we are being very unfairly treated," Deisenroth said. "This was not our fault."
The Army declined to comment on Deisenroth's comments.
Pete Keating, a spokesman with General Dynamics, said that Deisenroth's comment about the variations "doesn't track with any information I have," but he declined to go into detail about the corporation's dealings with the German subcontractor.
"The important thing to know is that our team is going to ensure that no troops from Fort Lewis deploy without 14.5-mm protection," Keating said. "And that IBD, General Dynamics and the Army are working to achieve that."
The Stryker concept has been controversial ever since its inception in 1999. Critics, including some within the Pentagon, have said the vehicles are difficult to transport by air, lack accurate firepower and are vulnerable to rocket-propelled grenades (RPG), which Saddam loyalists have used with deadly effect against American forces in Iraq.
Recent news of the armor problems have helped to further stoke the controversy. The Army defends the vehicles, saying that they are meant as troop carriers, not fighting vehicles, and that no vehicle in the inventory except M1 tanks are fully protected from RPGs. The vehicles also are being outfitted with an outer cage of slotted armor to protect against rocket-propelled grenades.
General Dynamics said the added weight of the steel panels and the slot armor would not hinder the vehicle's performance.
"EBO isn't a strategy. It's a sales pitch." - Ralph Peters
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Seasoned Vet
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Last Login: 9/7/2005 7:22 PM
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quote:
General Dynamics said the added weight of the steel panels and the slot armor would not hinder the vehicle's performance.
As long as the Stryker stays on hard packed earth, like roads. However tires will fail at an even more alarming rate because of the additional weight. Also vehicle acceleration from rest will be slower.
The Army has claimed 14.5mm protection for the Stryker from the very begining. But then the Stryker's armor failed tests early last year. The solution was to add these ceramic tiles. Now the ceramic tiles are failing and the Stryker is still not protected up to 14.5mm as it was advertised in 1999. This from a vehicle that weighs 20+ tons. A Bradley only weighs 25 tons.
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Ei Temporis Vita Semper Resumo Sese
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Well... Bradleys now weigh a bit more than that since the M2A2 was fielded with it's applique steel armor... but... they can also take hits from the BMP-2's 30mm cannon with negligable effect... and the new DU ammunition for the 25mm Bushmater can carve up T-72s.
"The degenerative and loony should never be denigrated but, rather, thanked. In their absence, the rest of you would be obliged to fill congressional seats... positions naturally unsavory to the sane and honorable." Thorax
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